Tuesday, September 15, 2009

My Mortal Kombat Redesigns

Here are the Mortal Kombat characters I re-designed for a Mortal Kombat pitch I made before I left Midway last year. The basis for the idea was a re-imagining of the Mortal Kombat franchise from the original premise.

Scorpion as a wraith wearing the yellow blood of the demon that helped him resurrected to exact his revenge against his mortal enemy.
Raiden as a god who's feet rarely touch the ground.

Sonya, the daughter of a Texas Ranger who's sex appeal weakens her opponents while her Special Forces training kicks their asses.
Kano, half Japanese half US military bad ass. The game idea isn't going to happen now that I no longer work there. I'd still like to one day redesign all the rest of the original characters, if I ever find the time.


Find Sub-zero here:
http://vincentproceart.blogspot.com/2010/03/hello-folks-i-promised-that-i-would-try.html

503 comments:

1 – 200 of 503   Newer›   Newest»
joeystudz said...

Oooo, I remember these, so dope Vincent!!!

Vincent Proce said...

thanks bro

kingjolly said...

This is fantastic. Seriously, I've always wanted the next mk to be a total re-imagination. Are you positive that the next mk won't be a reboot/re-imagining of some sort? If not, that would be pretty disappointing.

Amazing designs....

Unknown said...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE somehow get them to except this... this is what the MK series so desperately needs. I am a die hard MK fan, I always have been. I was disgusted with midway for putting out the same damn game since mk5. It was almost becoming like madden or dynasty warriors. MKvsDC shared some of the same animations as mk5 for god's sake. This art is not only beautiful, but its dark, serious, and something unique that Mortal Kombat hasnt done to death yet. They need to stop pumping out quantity like MK:Armageddon and start making some damn quality starting here with these awesome re-imaginings. GREAT work!

Your scorpion is probably the most badass scorpion i have ever seen... instant wallpaper!

Hare said...

Are you thinking about making any prints available for sale, particularly the 4 re-imaginings? I would seriously be interested in buying a copy of each!!

B said...

Woah, these are amazing. In particular Scorp and Raiden, holy $h*. I really, really miss the glory days of this franchise. Please tell TPTB that Rehash is not the same as Rebirth... Thank you for posting these pics. Ah, nostalgia.

Mike Tassie said...

Hot D@mn! These are awesome Vince!

Vincent Proce said...

Ha thanks for the compliments. As far as getting these concepts into the game you all will have to post your comments on the Mortal Kombat forums :). Or talk to Mike Tassie...

Deexie said...

Hi. I made a wallpaper with your Sonya and posted on Midway Boards, with credit and a link to your blog. I hope it's ok. Awesome work by the way!

Unknown said...

Can't wait seeing another look for Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage or Smoke !!! :)
Congratuation, you're like god in drawings.
Greetings from a french fan :) !

Unknown said...

Can't wait seeing another look for Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage or Smoke !!! :)
Congratuation, you're like god in drawings.
Greetings from a french fan :) !

Unknown said...

Can't wait seeing another look for Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage or Smoke !!! :)
Congratuation, you're like god in drawings.
Greetings from a french fan :) !

Slayer said...

Can't wait seeing another look for Sub-Zero, Johnny Cage or Smoke !!! :)
Congratuation, you're like god in drawings.
Greetings from a french fan :) !
Slayer

Anonymous said...

Um, wow?

Seriously, those are bloody insane.

JamFactory said...

Incredible work, amazing!!

Unknown said...

Very well done pics, they're beautiful.

David Champion said...

Would you call it Mortal Kombat : Rebirth? :) Just a thought...

I love the reskins and new idea for the series

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jack Barrier said...

I probably spent enough quarters on the original MK, MK2, and MK3 in the arcades to put myself through 4 years of community college.

While my interest in the franchise waned more and more with time, this post rekindled my feelings of old. It's too bad your idea didn't come to fruition, but I am thankful you decided to post this group of photos. Kick ass artwork Vincent.

mystady.com said...

Damn, Sonya looks really stupid. That outfit is way out of character. It looks like something you go to sleep in, not something you fight people with. Seriously, who stole the girl's pants?

You are marvelously talented at drawing but that Sonya concept is terrible.

Unknown said...

Beautiful illustrations.

But why can't Sonya be re-imagined with some clothes on, now THAT would be a swerve. The video game industry needs to grow up on this front.

gleentea said...

Wow, these are amazing. What are you up to now?

Unknown said...

I love the inclusion of the Star Trek TNG weapon on Sonya's concept!

Nice shout out. ;D

If it was intentional, that is. LOL.

Unknown said...

amazing!

Red Fox said...

Hey there Vincet!
Awsome stuff.
My favourite its the scorpion pic, i like a lot the direction you took.
Give scorpion a dead men feel, like a spirit of revenge.
Nice color and most impotantant the attitude, rocks.
Besto of MK pics I have seen in years!

mystady.com said...

@Ian
So she's fighting to the death in a bikini? That's retarded, dude.

She looks like an extra in a bad sleepover slasher film.

It's stupid.

Anonymous said...

totally awesome... i would have paid money for this

Unknown said...

As a Mortal Kombat fan since the very first game hit arcades, I've longed for a gritty re-imagining JUST like this. That is BY FAR the best Scorpion I have EVER seen. Raiden looks like a powerful GOD instead of just some flashy monk. This is the direction I hoped so long to see made a reality... instead of the campy comic-book crossover we got instead.

Best of luck to you in your future endeavors, and as a MK fan I still hope these wonderful ideas are picked up on.

Shade said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shade said...

Man.

Those designs are fucking amazing. It just shows how far out of touch the Mortal Kombat franchise is right now. These designs are [I]far[/I] superior to anything that's come out the Mortal Kombat franchise is years. (especially that Scorpion. Damn he looks mean, and I really dig the "demon's blood" thing. Genius).

Gritty, re-imagined MK is exactly what Midway needs.

Hell, majority of the recent character introduced since the series went 3D have been total and utter fucking fail, especially visually. Vince has it right. This would rekindle alot of interest in the games. It's depressing as an artist, AND an avid video game player that this was rejected.


[B]Vincent Proce[/B] is my new hero. You rock bro.

With that said, whom do we as fans have to email/speak to, to get this pushed into the green? I'm ready to help this brilliant direction out.

Unknown said...

If MK had this art style, I would get back into MK again. Havent wanted to since MK3 ultimate

wightlight said...

These are fantastic. Biggest mistake ever not biting on that pitch. I haven't played Mortal Kombat since MKII, but I would buy this game instantly.

Cody Thomas said...

Lovvvving it. Good stuff, and really inspiring to fellow game artists.

I want to model one of these characters!

Vincent Proce said...

Hey, I have been getting a lot of heat for the Sonya costume. Some love it and some hate it (especially Alain-Christian).
I was out on the fence about whether I should put pants on her or not. I had a sketch that I did with fatigues and a bullet proof vest but I ended up just going with the bikini bottoms and low cut top to try and sell it to the executives that generally want to see T and A on the females in the MK franchise (in all fighting games for that matter). It was a call I was in a position to make so I made it. These were not art directed or tweaked by anyone but me because they were all done at home on my own time without any input from the team (this was before they asked me to do work for the MK vs DCU title). I added the Star trek sort of iron weapon on her hand so she would be able to compete with gods, wraiths and cyborgs shooting projectiles and swinging swords. One of the main mechanics in the pitch was dismemberment; if a player gets chopped on an unprotected part of their body they lose that part, first swipe.
I wanted to make the weapons work more like they do in reality and make the characters a bit faster than reality.
A close friend of mine once said “don’t ever make excuses for your work”. That said I felt the passion that some people had about my choice to put Sonya in bikini bottoms had to be addressed. So I did, frankly I am pleased that any of you took the time to look or write at all.
The MK team is currently working on the next iteration of the franchise. I was able to see some of what they were going for before I left last year and I thought it was an awesome idea and direction for the game. I obviously cannot say what the direction was but I will say fans will not be disappointed!
Thanks,
Vin

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mystady.com said...

It's one thing if it's a new character or a different fighting game. But this is Sonya Blade. Has she ever exposed that much skin before? No. I'm kind of embarrassed for you. It looks like something you drew to get off on.

I guess it's the lack of subtlety that jumps out at me the most. It's just so obvious, you know? You might as well have drawn her nude. Sonya never needed to expose that much flesh to look good. Her MK II look was hot and she wasn't all exposed.

Who cares about other fighting games? You have to think within the MK universe. This isn't Dead or Alive.

mystady.com said...

"It looks like something you drew to get off on."

Just to clarify I'm not accusing you of doing this. It just incited the same reaction in me as when I come across x-rated Sonic the Hedgehog fan art.

*shudder*

Shade said...

The thing is Alain, she is not the only one whose worn spandex, or has had a lack of pants, she isn't the first, and she won't be the last.

Cammy is a damn fine military character, and she lacks pants. She works, so what's the deal? Also, keep in mind this was Proce's re-imagining, which means who she was doesn't necessarily translate into who she would become.

Stop tripping, is what I'm trying to say.

Unknown said...

Mr. Proce, as far as I'm concerned, you really should be in charge of this franchise. Those four drawings alone show how seriously you take the characters and their universe...

Anonymous said...

Dear person,

I hope you will read this message, as I think you will get a lot of spam on this adress.

As a huge fan from the Netherlands I have seen the series of Mortal Kombat go downwards. And I have my own theory concerning why the popularity of MK went downwards.
Mortal Kombat wasn't only a hit because of the use of blood or the gameplay....There was something else that made the series unique.
And that is: the use of real human sprites!
THIS gave MK the unique Mortal Kombat feeling, distinguishing Mortal Kombat from all other one on one games. Playing Mortal Kombat gave one the feeling of playing with real human characters in a movie or dark tournament. It gave it a "real" feeling and made it extra convincing.

When the 3d era came, Mortal Kombat's popularity went downwards....Why? Because the game didn't distinguish itself anymore.
Yes ofcourse the characters from the previous MK's were there BUT there were so many good 3d fighting games....And when there are more good competitors one has to distinguish himself.
What happened when you guys went into 3D Mortal Kombat....The real sprites were GONE. Now MK was like all other games with drawn, unreal characters losing it's MK feeling and credibility.
As a MEGA fan of Mortal Kombat, I never baught ONE 3d game....why? Because it didn't feel like Mortal Kombat anymore....The feeling was gone....
And I think deep in your heart you know that the feeling is gone since you went 3D.

Now I don't want you to go back to 2d....These days that's impossible....But I DO have an advise to get that old MK feeling back.
Stop the drawn characters like a comic book and go back to the thing that made MK distinguish it's self from all other fighting games....the REAL Human sprites!
Incorporate those real sprites into 3D and again be a Pioneer and the first amongst all other fighting games.
You must have something that distinguishes your game from the rest....Something that really Makes Mortal Kombat, Mortal Kombat.
Make the actor's real....And bring that old feeling back....

Do that and I am sure you will have a hit again....People will say: Mortal Kombat is back!

Greetings,

K. Bettache

Groningen, The Netherlands.

mystady.com said...

@Shade
Cammy and Sonya are two different people in two entirely different games. The comparison doesn't work at all.

Unknown said...

Those are so epic! Whoever doesn't offer you a job after seeing these needs to get their head checked.

Anonymous said...

Hello,

My name is Ian Fisher and I'm the Lead Editor at ShogunGamer.com which is a site that covers games, movies and other geek/tech centric things.

I was wondering if it would be possible to do an interview with you discussing your concept art for your Mortal Kombat reboot along with other things such as what it was like working at Midway.

Obviously if you can't discuss certain aspects of your concept due to a contractual NDA or something of that nature than I fully understand if you can't do the interview. But if you can freely talk about your vision for the MK franchise then I would love to get a chance to talk to you since myself, the other Editors of the site and the community of Shogun Gamer fell in love with your vision for MK.

If you have any questions about the site or the interview then please feel free to contact me at ian@shogungamer.com

Thanks for your time and more importantly thanks for making this incredible concept art public. It truly is amazing and is the direction and fresh start that the MK franchise seems to need.

Thanks,

Ian Fisher
Lead Editor
ian@shogungamer.com

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Hey Vincent, my name's Robert Britton, I live in Australia. I've been playing Mortal Kombat since the very first game. I've been working on 4 new Mortal Kombat tournaments of my own for about 8 years. It's got everything I love from all 8 games, including, moves, fatalities, hara-kiris, fighting styles+weapons, costumes, arenas and music. The first 3 games are just about Mortal Kombat. The 4th game is Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter vs Tekken vs Killer Instinct. The game is a lot darker with very serious fatalities. The boss is done in a similar way to MKvsDC, with Goro's upperbody, Eyedol's legs and head, Devil Kazuya's wings and tail and Akuma's head, chest and arms coming out of Goro's stomach, similar to Total Recall. My friend drew a picture of it for me. I'm wondering if I could send it to you and if you'd like to draw your own version? Also, I'd love to send you copies of my 4 games. I've been trying to get in contact with Midway, but John Vogel told me on Twitter that they can't look at anything that's not done by someone who works for Midway, because of legal reasons. But, if you could have a look or someone you know who has credibility then maybe someone from Midway would consider looking at them. (Only if you think they're any good). I hope you can get back to me. Thanks man.

Unknown said...

Hey Vincent, my name's Robert Britton, I live in Australia. I've been playing Mortal Kombat since the very first game. I've been working on 4 new Mortal Kombat tournaments of my own for about 8 years. It's got everything I love from all 8 games, including, moves, fatalities, hara-kiris, fighting styles+weapons, costumes, arenas and music. The first 3 games are just about Mortal Kombat. The 4th game is Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter vs Tekken vs Killer Instinct. The game is a lot darker with very serious fatalities. The boss is done in a similar way to MKvsDC, with Goro's upperbody, Eyedol's legs and head, Devil Kazuya's wings and tail and Akuma's head, chest and arms coming out of Goro's stomach, similar to Total Recall. My friend drew a picture of it for me. I'm wondering if I could send it to you and if you'd like to draw your own version? Also, I'd love to send you copies of my 4 games. I've been trying to get in contact with Midway, but John Vogel told me on Twitter that they can't look at anything that's not done by someone who works for Midway, because of legal reasons. But, if you could have a look or someone you know who has credibility then maybe someone from Midway would consider looking at them. (Only if you think they're any good). I hope you can get back to me. Thanks man.

Unknown said...

Hey Vincent, my name's Robert Britton, I live in Australia. I've been playing Mortal Kombat since the very first game. I've been working on 4 new Mortal Kombat tournaments of my own for about 8 years. It's got everything I love from all 8 games, including, moves, fatalities, hara-kiris, fighting styles+weapons, costumes, arenas and music. The first 3 games are just about Mortal Kombat. The 4th game is Mortal Kombat vs Street Fighter vs Tekken vs Killer Instinct. The game is a lot darker with very serious fatalities. The boss is done in a similar way to MKvsDC, with Goro's upperbody, Eyedol's legs and head, Devil Kazuya's wings and tail and Akuma's head, chest and arms coming out of Goro's stomach, similar to Total Recall. My friend drew a picture of it for me. I'm wondering if I could send it to you and if you'd like to draw your own version? Also, I'd love to send you copies of my 4 games. I've been trying to get in contact with Midway, but John Vogel told me on Twitter that they can't look at anything that's not done by someone who works for Midway, because of legal reasons. But, if you could have a look or someone you know who has credibility then maybe someone from Midway would consider looking at them. (Only if you think they're any good). I hope you can get back to me. Thanks man.

Jet Black said...

A hairy-Kano returns.
I like that original concept to the character.
Of course the other characters are awesome too.

Do hope MK could return to the main line as the first 2 of the series in this generation.

Jet Black said...

A hairy-Kano returns.
I like that original concept to the character.
Of course the other characters are awesome too.

Do hope MK could return to the main line as the first 2 of the series in this generation.

Manoloon said...

God lord!! Increible!! Amazing man!! thanks for sharing this work with us, mortals.

Kungfu Steve said...

1st, Why ever would you want to see your creations Butchered into crappily animated 3d mess?

MK hasnt been good since its 2d days. AND, future fighters SHOULD
be re-introduced as High-Resolution 2d animations... looking much closer to your drawing than some horribly robotic
polygons. Heck, Id rather play a
high res photo-realistic captured
game than the 3d crap out today.


2nd, there are some flaws in your designs, IMOP. As some have mentioned... the scantily clad fighter. It could be overlooked.. but, she is wearing Heavy boots. Nobody who is a good kicker would EVER wear those for kicking. A woman especially, who has less overall power, and needs all the speed she can get. A slow kick, is a kick that never lands a blow. (let alone the slower footwork)

Raiden has always been Odd to me. You really cant fight with a bamboo hat... Period. The moment you headbutt anything, the hat will crumble. He 'Should' take it off before a fight.

3rd... Two characters with Military experience? Seems like a creativity block there? Do you Really think the best fighter come or hover around the Military? Cause you would be Severely mistaken.

Most of the Military is taught the most Basic and quickly learned
tactics. Not the best, nor the most deadly / accurate / fast..etc.

Of course, when you look at any of the original Mortal Kombats... there is very little to speak of in terms of advanced arts... But thats exactly what the game Needs. Especially since its starting point
was supposed to be based in Chinese
Kungfu & KF Movies.

Watch a Chinese Spear / Pole form
and compare that to any Karate/TKD staff form, and you should easily
be able to notice how underwhelming/simplistic the latter is 'comparatively'. Same for the Jian (Double edge Straight
Sword).

A big problem with some fighting games, are the designers who lack actual depth of martial arts / weapons experience.

I can tell you from experience, that once you do have such experience... all your previous
thoughts (and designs) are quite humorous upon reflection.

The Cr4zy M4n said...

OMG WOW.. just got pointed in this direction and I wish I saw this earlier.
I've always loved MK to the point that I have at least played every one, but I do feel that it needs a serious reworking...

that said really awesome job! I'm not sure what it is about these designs that fit just right or at least to me they do, but they fit...
I also would love to see what you might have had in mind for Sub-zero, Smoke or Cyrax.

your re-imagining does sound like it would have been great, the game Rune: Halls of Valhalla comes to my mind on dismemberment and that game brought friends and I hours of fun even though I'm sure MK would have been different as far as that is concerned... still though sounds awesome lol

also if it's no problem I would like to make a wallpaper with scorpion..

Mavado Charon said...

Vincent,

you're a genious ! This is excaltly the way i imagine (i fell) Mortal Kombat since the beginning !! I just hope that those nasty appareance of my favorite fighters will, one day, appears in a video game !!
One day, Ed Boon talked about a more "dark" Mortal Kombat (just before MK VS DC... Oups !) and i really hope it will kome one day !

Thanks a lot for those great and exciting pictures !!

"Mavado" Charon
PS : i draw this sort of fighters on my blog ... I hope you'll like them (adults only)

David O said...

freaking insane!

Scorpion is just so freaking badass!
I mean look at his hook, now located on his palm, he can trigger it anytime and drag you. Instead of the old style whereas he uses a kunai with rope.

Raiden just look like a damn god! I love the style of using that rice hat thing and he can still through those gaps. When you look at his face, all you see are white eyes staring at you.

Kano is nice, really reminds me of Sobek from Unreal Championship 2.

Sonya is nice too, evil looking.

Unknown said...

Just a note to say and ask a couple of things.

- your work looks amazing, sure you must have picked that up from the comments made here. The MK re imaging is sweet. Scorpion & Raiden are two of my favourite characters and they look proper bad boys in these pictures.

- which leads to the second question. Is any of your work available for sale - be it originals or prints. Looked on the web and couldn't see anything. Appreciate there may be copyright issues over the MK stuff. Would like to own and show more art in my house but art that I like. If not would you recommend anyone else to check out.

Anyway - good stuff, jealous of you ability to draw but hey some of us have spreadskills to amaze.

Slydes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Slydes said...

Wow, these are just spectacular!

First of all, a well-done MK remake would be a dream come true for me. I love the idea and I love the direction you've gone with these images.

I really like Scorpion the most (I've always been a big fan of the ninja characters, so I'm admittedly biased.) I particularly love that he's very ninja-like and doesn't have any giant ornate shoulder-guards or medallions, or sash-buckles. I noticed you gave him gray skin and black everything, similar to how Noob Saibot is. I think that's a really cool trait that could be used to specify who's undead and who isn't. Most of all I loved that you included his signature color of yellow through the use of splatters (Ecto-plasm, maybe?) While it's a bit hard to figure out WHAT it is, it's a great idea, and I'd like to think that it's blood splatters from his victims that glows yellow due to Scorpion's aura or something.

Kano's especially well-done also. I like that you touched on his robotic eye a bit more than the MK series really attempts, and I love that he isn't muscular, but he looks tough as nails. Beautifully done.

I can't comment too much on Raiden, I've always been displeased by his costumes in general, and while this is well done, I can't say it's that visually appealing to me. I have to compliment you on the fact that his entire costume is so incredibly extravagant to go along with the fact that he's a god.

Lastly, Sonya. I've always found Sonya to be unappealing and unattractive. You've remedied this to an extent. I think your rendition is more interesting in general (The tattoos, some make-shift accessories, and is that a sheriff's badge?)Though I do see some flaws. An oriental sword really just doesn't seem her style. Sonya seems like the type that would turn down a sword for her Combat Knife any day of the week. I, unfortunately, have to agree with what some of the others have said regarding her scantily clad status. I have no problem with overly sexualized female characters. Sexiness is appealing to the public and in today's society it's also considered cool. Scorpion is a badass undead ninja, Kano is a tough thug, and Sonya is a sexy, capable, woman. It's her entire archetype. Strong personality, and sexy aesthetics.

There's a point, though, where practicality and acceptability are sacrificed for sexualization, and you passed that point several miles ago. Really, just putting some tight pants on her would remedy the situation in my opinion. A g-string, only a g-string, is a bit over the top in a bad way.

Thanks for the great images. As a wanna-be concept artist, they're incredibly inspiring.

P.S.
I just realized you had a small paragraph detailing each character, which explains the yellow blood, the sheriff badge, etc. Sorry I missed it. The blood of the demon that helped resurrect Scorpion is SIGNIFICANTLY more badass than my theory.

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daniel john said...

I made a wallpaper with your Sonya and posted on Midway Boards, with credit and a link to your blog. I hope it's ok. Awesome work by the way!
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Shinobu said...

i like your version of Kano better than the Deadly Alliance or MK3 version. Boon and Midway should fuckin' hire you immediately for krissakes

Lanthanum said...

These designs are awesome dude..
I love MK. Fantabulous work .
now iam waiting for these designs to get the official approval.. :)
Plz contact me when you write something similar..once agn thnks for these terrific designs
hamza@samruz.com
http://www.jobspert.com

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Roger Smith said...

Excellent combat characters and their designs. Sonya is really a sexy character.
Great job Buddy..

Raymeds

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his is fantastic. Seriously, I've always wanted the next mk to be a total re-imagination. Are you positive that the next mk won't be a reboot/re-imagining of some sort? If not, that would be pretty disappointing.

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Ha thanks for the compliments. As far as getting these concepts into the game you all will have to post your comments on the Mortal Kombat forums :).


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They need to stop pumping out quantity like MK:Armageddon and start making some damn quality starting here with these awesome re-imaginings. GREAT work!
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The new Mortal Kombat characters are really nice one to watch and it is really nice to have such thing as been a improvement in the game because it is always good to have some thing new in the new version of games.

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I always have been. I was disgusted with midway for putting out the same damn game since mk5. It was almost becoming like madden or dynasty warriors. MKvsDC shared some of the same animations as mk5 for god's sake. This art is not only beautiful, but its dark, serious, and something unique that Mortal Kombat hasnt done to death yet. They need to stop pumping out quantity like MK:Armageddon and start making some damn quality starting here with these awesome re-imaginings. GREAT work!
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This art is not only beautiful, but its dark, serious, and something unique.
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Beautiful illustrations.

But why can't Sonya be re-imagined with some clothes on, now THAT would be a swerve. The video game industry needs to grow up on this front.

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I was disgusted with midway for putting out the same damn game since mk5. It was almost becoming like madden or dynasty warriors. MKvsDC shared some of the same animations as mk5 for god's sake. This art is not only beautiful, but its dark, serious, and something unique that Mortal Kombat hasnt done to death yet.
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Are you thinking about making any prints available for sale, particularly the 4 re-imaginings? I would seriously be interested in buying a copy of each!!

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What do you think about your "re-imagining" basically taking place now?

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I think the new idea is not quite bad.They will work out nicely cause they looks different and interesting.Lets see in the upcoming mortal combat games their outfits and way of looking changes or not..
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